The Say Less Podcast

014 - [SERIES] The First Year Files: What Do I Charge?!

• Episode 14

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In this episode, Alex and Grace unravel the often confusing world of pricing for creative entrepreneurs, especially photographers. They share insights, real-world examples, and practical strategies to help you confidently set your prices, grow your business, and position yourself for success.

In this episode:

  • The popular misconceptions about pricing in creative industries
  • How to start with your pricing — no more guessing!
  • The importance of transparency and showing your starting prices
  • The effect of social media on perception of value and pricing
  • Real-world statistics: what photographers are charging at different experience levels
  • Why setting your prices below the market can be a smart move
  • The role of your experience in determining your value
  • How to avoid comparison trap and focus on your own growth
  • Pricing strategies based on time, equipment, and market research
  • The importance of backups, gear, and supporting equipment
  • The mindset shift: your services are luxury, not necessity

Remember, your prices should reflect your experience, the value you bring, and the market you serve. Pricing isn't just about covering costs, but positioning your brand for long-term sustainability. Keep building, keep learning, and keep showing up as the confident creative entrepreneur you're meant to be!

Send us burning questions, topic ideas, and things you’re loving about the podcast!

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Grace & Andrew Cacho provide clarity to businesses and personal brands by means of Brand Message Clarity, Audits, Brand Strategy, Content Creation, Photo & Video, Web Design, and Social Media Management.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like that's a good price point. Oh yeah, for sure. Okay. For a beginner. I so I'll sorry. No. Um I'm me apologizing every time I want to speak. That's just my whole life though.

unknown

That's just my whole life.

SPEAKER_01

I'm just apologizing for existing. Oh my god, I'm laughing. Okay. Oh man, I'm laughing so loud. I'm gonna wake up Jack from his nap and then I'll be really upset.

SPEAKER_00

I wanted to start a podcast for creative entrepreneurs. So I asked Alex to join me and I said, stay less. I'm in. Welcome to the Stay Less podcast, where we actually say a lot more about motherhood, creativity, photography, business ownership, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_01

We are your hosts, Alex and Grace, and this is a space for creative women building something meaningful. Whether you're raising babies, raising your rates, or just trying to figure out your next move.

SPEAKER_00

We talk about all the real stuff. What's working, what's not, what we're unlearning, what nobody tells you about building a business that has to fit inside a real life. The pivot, the pressure, the sustainability, and all of the seasons. If you've ever felt like you're creating in the margins of your time, your energy, or your confidence, you're not alone here. So stay left. Let's get into it. Okay, everyone. Today we are talking about something that I feel like every photographer and every creative entrepreneur, even, has thought about. And it is, what do I charge? I know I had this question when I first started out, and it we're kind of, I feel like everybody's guessing, unless we have the facts. So we're here to spill some facts.

SPEAKER_01

It's a guess and check. And I do want to get into this later because I know that you stand on business with being very transparent with your pricing and showing that on your website and stuff like that. But I think before we can get to that point, the question is is like, how do I begin with my pricing? Like, where, how do I set it? Where do I get that information from? If people aren't showing it, how do I start? So I'm excited to talk about all that, but the tea. I always have to start with the tea because it kind of warm, it warms me up, you know, like it gets me excited. Okay, I know y'all have seen this. If you're a creative entrepreneur or if you're not, you have seen people posting on Facebook on any sort of like public forum saying I'm looking for a photographer for an event. And I think that's good. And I think that's harmless. I will say I hate it, hate, hate. My least favorite thing in the entire world is when people say looking for a blank blank blank that doesn't or that doesn't charge an arm and a leg. Have you ever seen that? It drives me crazy. It's like you were not charging body parts. And that's such an annoying thing. And I I understand that you're looking for maybe someone budget friendly, but everyone's budget is different. Yes. Okay. So post your budget. An arm and a leg is not a budget. For sure. Post your budget. So that's that's kind of the T because there's all these posts. Um, there's one Instagram reel that Grace had sent me, but I've seen probably a handful of them lately circulating of screenshots that people are posting in public forums, specifically Facebook groups like Brides of Blank, Dallas, whatever, posting saying, I'm looking for a photographer that's this style. And it'll be a like a screenshot of so and so's Instagram feed, you know, like it'll be all the blocks of, and it'll be like some sort of like famous photographer, famous being widely, widely known. And in my brain, I'm like, I know that photographer charges $10,000. And they'll say, I'm looking for this style, and my budget is $800.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Not yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So uh like speechless.

SPEAKER_00

No, literally, something's gotta give. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Something's gotta give. Like you cannot have both things.

SPEAKER_00

And then you get like the hate that comes with final gallery delivery, and it's not what they expected, but they only paid $800. Right. And so $200 more than they wanted to. No, but it was like way low likely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Exactly. And like if your budget is $800, that's totally fine. There are people that are starting out that charge $800. Don't expect the $10,000 quality of images as well as the experience, right? So then bringing it full circle, the issue is that people are, I'm expecting this screenshot of $10,000 photographer. My budget is $800. And then they're following it up with a bad review and a rant on their $800 photographer, which is super low budget, by the way. Yeah. And posting they didn't deliver what I wanted, and this isn't good enough, and this is wrong, and this is blah, blah, blah. Bad review. I didn't get my photos on time. It's not what I wanted. You chose the starting out photographer for $800.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's it's a little bit of an yeah, it's an epidemic. And I think so. This is way, it's not off topic, but it's not in the wedding photography niche. But did you did you follow the not famous tee on TikTok with the hair thing? No. I don't think so. What is it? A girl went to like a very reputable hairstylist and then you know, did some TikToks about her experience. Was this the hair dye Chrissy thing?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I wasn't gonna say it. But yes. Oh, well, she's never gonna say this, so she's not gonna answer this. No, okay, like I totally remember this now.

SPEAKER_00

It's not a vibe. It's and uh I don't know, not everybody has this ill intent, right? But some people do be out there trying to they're like waiting to get scammed so they can post about it.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The whole point is that if you're paying $800, you're probably not getting scammed. Right. Yeah, it's just like setting expectations. We have to set proper expectations for that. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I totally forgot about that. I forgot about that. But it's like also in not that I'm like defending hair by Chrissy, but I will say, like, she, of course, is one of those higher charging, like luxury blah, blah, blah, but she's still a person. You know, so I'm like, it's not because she charges so much or because she has the popularity and the followers and blah blah blah that she's gonna be perfect all the time. Yeah. And that's true of like creative entrepreneurs too. You know, I I think you and I both are like midpoint photographers, in my opinion. Yeah. Like we're obviously not starting out. We have the experience, we charge in the thousands. Yeah. Mid. And then, you know, there's like the quote unquote luxury high-end photographers that do charge $10,000, as I know we just talked about, but it's like we're still human beings. Yeah. I'm still just me. And like every once in a while, my galleries are a week or two late. And I know I've talked about that before. Yeah. So it's it's really like a whole, it's a whole thing. But I want to talk about the pricing specifically. This is, by the way, for those of you that are joining us, this is the next episode in our first year file. So we are talking specifically to creative entrepreneurs in months zero to six of their business. Yeah. Today we're gonna talk about pricing, which I think will be relatable to any creative entrepreneur for sure. Of kind of how to find what to price yourself. We want to get like into that. And then we're gonna talk about which is gonna be obviously specifically for photographers. So if that doesn't relate to you, you can totally skip over it.

SPEAKER_00

But you know, I think it's the same principles, just different price points, probably depending on your market.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it's going, yes. That's what I tried to do when I was writing this. I was like, I want it to be relatable to more than just photographers. However, of course, we're biased because we are both photographers. Photographers. Yeah, yeah, we're photographers. Like, that's what we do. So yeah, so I know I talked about this and I want to like go on to it again, but Grace loves to stand on business about showing your pricing on your website and being very transparent. Um with that, I do have, I like to do the starting at price. So I'm like, it starts at this because you know, depending on what you decide to add, I do offer bridal and boire add-ons, um, extra time add-ons. I also offer linen keepsake albums, and those can be an add-on as well. So, but it starts at $3,500. Yep. Transparent. Yeah. I start at $3,500. And I know I've talked about this. My first wedding, I charged $50 and they gave me a $50 tip. $500 total. Total. But um, I I just I want to encourage, because this is for our starting out people, don't compare yourself to what you're seeing on social media and the research that you're doing if you're on other photographers' websites and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, you're going to see photographers charging $4,000, $8,000, $10,000 while you're editing your first shoot that you did for $75 at midnight. And you're like, what am I doing wrong? You're not doing anything wrong. You're seeing the end of someone else's timeline. I am at, I'm 10 years in my business. Yeah. And you're in month three. Don't compare where you're at to my 3,500 plus price point. Don't compare. I've been doing this for 10 years. Everything I have is all my systems are automated, my workflow's automated. I know when I shoot a session, I'll be like, okay, I took this many photos. It's going to take me this long to edit. I'm going to do it on Wednesday. I'll deliver on for like all that is imprinted into like your calling down and your editing down.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Even like your processes for those.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Yeah. So I don't compare. Don't compare.

SPEAKER_00

This isn't an extra point. It's just people comparing themselves to other people. I don't I've never seen in the industry like this the ability to have so many other people's work in front of you and the opportunity to compare. I I can't imagine being a beginner now. Yeah. I know. Like TikTok and Instagram and just all of the information that is thrown at you. So also like give yourself some grace because this is a wild time to be a beginner photographer, which is why we're kind of like sharing what we're sharing and also how it's changing now versus when we started.

SPEAKER_01

And I know we talked about this on like our positioning and like branding episode as well. But it's like you're thinking, okay, I'm gonna start my business. You have everything nailed down, you're looking at inspiration on Pinterest or another photographer that you aspire. I I can think of. I know we've talked about Rachel Megan, um, Brandy. I don't know how to say, I think her name is Brandy. Is either Elise or Alice? I don't know. Do you know? Okay, yeah. Her like warm and glowy is like my inspiration. Like I literally look through her page when I'm like craving. Doesn't she have red hair too? Yeah, she does. Yeah, she does. And I also think she's like closer to my age. I don't know. And I like I hope I'm right, but I think she's 30. Yeah, mid 30s, maybe. And so um, I know she's a mom and blah, blah, blah. And I just love her social media. And so, like, I look at those people when I'm looking for inspiration. And so I know photographers starting out also look at other people's, which you should, you totally should, yeah, to see kind of what's going on and like the market trends and the market blah blah blah. Like you need to be doing that. The issue that I think with that, you know, you've seen someone else's braining photos, you've taken them, and then you've positioned yourself on social media as this I'm blah blah blah, and I own blah blah blah, and I'm a super experienced photographer, but I'm charging 300 versus the person that, you know, you I I'm using that loosely as just like used as inspiration, who charges $3,000. Yeah. People are gonna think, well, this girl looks like this girl. So what's going wrong here? Yeah. What's going wrong here? Whereas I believe, I know you believe, in being more transparent with, I am just starting out. And that's as I gain my experience while I'm doing my portfolio building. Another episode, go back and listen to it if you want to. While I'm doing my portfolio building, I'm charging this less price. You're not missing anything, but have patience and grace with me as I'm in the beginning of my business. But I think people are missing that. Yeah. Because people are looking inside of a certain budget. And then if you're presenting yourself as this luxury photographer, but you have no experience, yeah. That can be that can be the mistake. But the mistake is pricing yourself based on like fear or comparison. So fear of charging too much, comparison to your inspiration. And I think Brandy, I'm just gonna say Brandy, her first name. Like I've never met her, but like, and I like maybe we should put this in the show notes because I don't want to, I am quoting her and I do use as inspiration and blah blah blah, but I don't know how to say her middle name. It's either Elise or Alice, doesn't matter. But Brandy, like I do compare myself to her sometimes. I know for a fact she's been a photographer longer than I have. Yeah. So I know she's 10 plus years into this.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I I'm maybe close enough to compare myself to her, all to say.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Those of you that are in the beginning, don't compare yourself to me or to Grace because we were near the end of our timeline. And I don't want to say the end, but you know what I mean. Like we have worked for years to get where we are. For sure.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So this is nerd. Also, I think we still I I text you before this. I was like, we're out here underpricing ourselves, is what I realized. So Alex and I, I think are also preaching to the choir here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, just truly. I know. But you know, you know, and especially on the podcast, I know. Shut up, I know, shut up, is that I'm making a lot of changes this summer, and I hope to bring in and offer more, bring more people, offer more services, and kind of take my business to the next level. Yeah. And that will come with a higher price. But for sure. It's hard because speaking from a personal level, I do believe what I charge is what I deserve to be making. But then I keep getting told to raise your charge more. Yeah. Because I I think I'm bringing more than I'm realizing as far as now my experience. I did just upgrade all my equipment, as you know. So that was like a huge investment, obviously, which I haven't upgraded in quite a few years. And so I'm making some big changes this summer, but it it's scary. It is so scary to raise your prices with the fear of losing out. So we'll see. Maybe I'll circle back to that. But I'm like, I'm too emo to talk about that right now. Maybe I'm too emo. It's like, and I we're gonna talk about this, so I don't want to get too into it, but it's like the cost of doing business and what I'm earning, I feel like aligns really well. But now that I'm so many years into this, I do have more to offer in the way of experience and higher quality equipment now. So I do need to raise my price to match that, but it's just hard. It's just hard. Not to mention just like the actual task of doing it, like going into my pricing guide and like adjusting it, adjusting calculator, adjusting it everywhere is a little bit, is a little bit sickening. Okay. Yeah. I want to get into like the nerd aspect of actual pricing, the numbers. Let's do the numbers. So my mom and I were laughing about this the other day because we were talking about how every partnership and we were meaning more so, you know, marriage. I'm like, you know how I always say I'm married, do you? Like you and I are married. Someone needs to be statistics and someone needs to be sparkle. And my husband is very much so statistics, and I am very much so sparkle. Yes. So all that to say is I am putting on my married glasses and going into the statistics. We love it. Yes. And just know that this is actually from digitalcameraworld.com. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So there's the reference for where this is coming from. So the average wedding photographer in the US is charging between 2,500 and 4,000. That's the average. Yep. And that's Podung Population 1,000 town, and that's Chicago, Illinois. Yeah. That is the average wedding photographer in the United States of America.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Established professionals. So you've have a couple years' experience, you are paying your taxes, you are established as a business. This is probably your full-time job, not your side hustle, is charging between $4,000 and $6,000.

SPEAKER_00

Average. Remember, these are averages. So if you're not charging $4,000 and you're an established photographer telling Alex and myself.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. No, and do you see me? It's okay. It's okay. Like head to hand. I'm like, this is, you know, where I need to be. Which I will say my average package was about $4,500.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

When it when it's all said and done with the extra time, with the add-ons, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like bridals and badoirs and things like that for sure. Albums. If you do albums, I know you do really great albums.

SPEAKER_01

So yes. I think my highest package, and I actually remember this year so far was 5,000. And that included an album and rehearsal dinner and the full wedding day coverage. So that that actually just passed like last month. So that was my highest paying one. And not that it was or wasn't enough, but it felt like a lot of work for what I was charging. Yeah. So I'm keeping that in mind. Okay, not making this about me. Major. Although I'm like, what do I not make about me, Jesus? Okay. Alrighty. So major metropolitan areas. So we're talking New York City. We're talking Chicago. I don't think this is DFW.

SPEAKER_00

I think this is very luxury DFW. Like the elite is what I'm thinking, like sports people and influencers and the kind of weddings that get sent to people. Okay. I think that we're in the key in my head.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay. I have maybe not worked with a photographer that charges $15,000, but like the average, yes. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I'm like, we're talking New York City. So the average major metropolitan area photographers charge between $8,000 and $15,000. Yeah. Um, crazy. Then lastly, and most importantly to our listeners, the beginner range starts between $500 to $3,000 while building your portfolio. Personally, I think $500 is low. Yeah, scary. And I know for a fact, Grace, you're charging too little because are you not close to that end of the end of the range there? Yeah. Yeah. I am. This is humbling. This is humbling.

SPEAKER_00

And these are like pretty recent. So we say $500 to $3,000. That $3,000 number has not been in the budget range for very long. Yeah. But a lot of like industry leaders are saying people that are just number shopping and not necessarily photography experience shopping are creeping into that $3,000 range just because of like cost of doing it. Right. So budgets are higher a little bit, even if it's if it's like budget, people are just price shopping. So if you're not offering like a budget experience and you want to get out of the area where people are just price shopping, definitely above 3,000 for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And I think that people are really scared of, and I know I mentioned this, but I know that creative entrepreneurs are scared of setting their price at a higher point and maybe higher than you believe. Yeah. And this is me speaking to myself. I know that we literally use these episodes as a pulse check, but I always feel fear of rejection when setting my price point any higher. When I have proven that I'm able to book in my goal amount of weddings, which as you know, and as the listeners that have been listening know, I like to book between 12 and 15 weddings a year, maximum. Maximum. Really 12 maximum. But I'm like, if I am feeling crazy, like I'll book closer to 15. Yeah. And that's fine. It's manageable. Yeah. And I just fear the rejection of if I set my price higher, then they're going to say no. I think that's really scary, especially for starting out photographers too. Of let me just charge $50 because I don't want to say no. It's important to hear these statistics and not just the sparkle because setting yourself too low is also going to set you up for rejection. And then I don't even want to go down the rabbit hole, but rejection isn't a bad thing.

SPEAKER_00

No.

SPEAKER_01

That wasn't your right person. That wasn't your right person. So I love that. That that's I'm serious. I'm like, I get rejected all the time. Not all the time, but I get rejected all like, not all the time. Whoa. Oh, that was a that was a little bit like We love you, Alex. Yeah, thank you. I know that was like a little bit much. Travis always says that I talk in superlatives all the time. It gets on his nerves. Where I'm like, you always, and it's like, well, you've actually done it one time. Absolutely. Yeah. I always am speaking in absolutes. Yes. So I'm like, I don't get rejected all the time. But I have been rejected before. Yes. And in the end, of course it's a blessing because that wasn't my right person. You know?

SPEAKER_00

And then do a little bit of market research. Yes. Why was it a no? Why was it? If if you were like if it was an ideal client, why was it a no? Like, what can I do better? And then you can charge more.

SPEAKER_01

I have started working into my initial email that I send. Um, that I do say, you know, I'm I'm flexible and I'm willing to work within a certain budget if the shoe fits. I think that's exactly what the email says. Yeah. Because I would hate to lose out on a potential dream client because I'm charging $4,000 and their budget's $3,500.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like, where can we give and take in order to kind of make this fit? You know, I'm not going to lose business over $500. I'm just not. So, but I'm in the position where I'm able to do that, obviously. Um, it just depends. But the goal is not profit first. When you're in this beginner pricing and you're working on your strategy, you shouldn't be thinking like, I need to be making as much money. And I know Grace and I are talking about that because we're at this point where we feel like we should be making a little bit more. But we're both passionate about what we do and we're passionate about our business. It's hard when you love it so much. You're like, I mean, I know you talked about this and I talked about this, but we do shoots for free because we just love what we do. We love it. Yeah, I know. See how many? I do too. I do it all the time because I love what I do and I feel blessed to be able to offer that. But the goal in the beginning is not to make money. And I know that's hard because you're probably working another job and then also starting. As a creative entrepreneur, but that can't be the goal. The goal needs to be your building your portfolio, which we've talked about, and working on your workflow and client experience. Yeah. Kind of like working out the kinks, answering those FAQ before they get asked. Yeah. And just like your confidence overall. You need to gain the experience and the confidence.

SPEAKER_00

So this is I'm gonna add one thing. Uh for the average pricing breakdown and pricing that we're about to get into. Remember, we're not talking, we don't even have anywhere like after you've been doing photography for X amount of time, this is what you should be charging. We're not putting time on it or like how long you've been doing it because you the same photographer and you could start at the same time, and maybe you don't have as much a support as them, or vice versa. You're able to get double the experience in the same amount of time and just get better at your craft and raise your prices. And maybe the other person is not. And so don't compare, like, oh, they've been doing it for this long, and so have I. So like maybe I'm behind, or or if you're ahead, that's great. But just remember the pricing is it doesn't matter how long you've been doing it. Your experience and what you're pouring into it and how you're developing your craft, no matter how long it takes you, is what you can kind of hang your hat on. No, I think you're gonna raise your price.

SPEAKER_01

That's exactly right. Like there's not gonna be like a certain point where you've been like, okay, I've done five. Now I'm like ready to move up to the next level. It's really more so like, wow, like my calendar is really full. I'm fully booked and feeling like exhausted and not like I'm making enough at this point. I feel like that's when your pricing is trying to tell you something of okay, now it's time to step up to the next level. But it's exactly what you said. It's not gonna be after three clients, it's not gonna be because so-and-so that started at the same time as you is blah, blah, blah. Everyone's on their own journey and having their own experience and gaining their own experience. It's about your calendar and your confidence and how you're feeling about it, don't you think? Yeah, for sure. Okay, so I'm gonna just breeze over this because this is um kind of my last little section of statistics, but I was pulling some average rates for what people are charging for certain sessions early on. So this is a beginner range for those of you that are starting out, and this is photography specific. So if you're not a photographer, I'm sorry. I'm going to breeze through it though. Just remember that like you're not you're not a discount photographer, you're in your development mode. Okay. So don't be like, I'm offering a discount. I'm offering a no, you're developing. Don't use that word.

SPEAKER_00

Don't use it.

SPEAKER_01

I don't ever like when we use that word.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. It's a special rate. Oh, that's sometimes.

SPEAKER_01

Sometimes. You know, I don't be doing any of that ever. And I'm like, I won't do a giveaway. I won't do no no no no no.

SPEAKER_00

No, fun fact, everybody, I was Alex's last official giveaway, I believe. It was right after we got married, and you had like a million things in your car because you were moving. And you came to Denton. My God.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so that literally was when four I was engaged to drive. That was nine years ago. That was nine years ago. I was moving from DFW to Wichita Falls, and everything I owned was in the back of my car. And I parked it in front of your apartment and locked the door and went in and did a shoot. Oh my God. I literally like I just memory unlocked. I can't even believe that. No, I actually did another giveaway. It was last year. So I I had just I mean, that's a while. That's a while though. Well, it was like for a fundraiser. Okay. Okay. So like I offered my giveaway service for like a silent auction for a fundraiser. So different. Yeah. It was for a good cause. And leading up to it, I was like, I regret this, but they were wonderful people and it ended up being a wonderful session. But it wasn't really like um, it's not really like what I offer. So like I've never posted them because it was like a little family session with little kids, which was so sweet, and I loved it and they were amazing. But like it's not, it wasn't marketing for me, which I didn't expect it to be. I did it for a good cause. But yes, I do not do giveaways. That's you know. Okay, example beginner ranges, photography specific, mini sessions, 75 to 150. I feel like that's a good price point. Oh, yeah, for sure. Okay, for a beginner.

SPEAKER_00

So I'll sorry. No, go. I'm me apologizing every time I want to speak. That's just my whole life, though. That's just my whole life.

SPEAKER_01

I'm just apologizing for existing. Oh my god, I'm laughing. Okay. Man, I'm laughing so loud, I'm gonna wake up Jack from his nap and then I'll be really upset. So I'm gonna start silent laughing.

SPEAKER_00

So I have some coaching students that are like fresh, fresh. Like maybe they've been doing it a month to three months. If you're really trying to get the experience without doing things for free, dangle something in front of them that is super hard to pass up, like 50 bucks. Like 50 bucks for even if it's just a mini session. This is kind of referencing portfolio building too, but I would say I tell them no more than like your first three sessions before you do hit that like minimum beginner price range. Yes, just to get the experience. However, if you've been shooting for free, then that's that's fine too. Like you can disregard that. But that's something that, and everybody does it differently, but that is something that I'll tell my coaching students is like, and it depends on your market too. So somebody that lives where I live, right in like north, north Texas, almost Oklahoma, can't charge the same as a beginner starting at the same place in like Dallas proper. Right. So, anyways, I but I love this. I've I love this price range, this $75 to $150. No, I think it's great. That's a pretty comfy beginner spot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I booked a mini session um with a very established photographer here in the DFW area for my family. And we're doing 20 minutes, which if you have little kids, you get it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like all that's needed. We don't need any more than that. Yep. Literally all that's needed. And I think she's charging like $250, which I still felt like was a good price, but $50. I mean, I can spend $50 in the Chick-fil-A drive-thru. I'm like, two meals, kids' meal, um, some desserts, maybe an extra side of mac and cheese. And I'm like, and that's $45, girl. So I'm like, that $50, I would not bat my eye over for the potential of having a handful of amazing images and supporting a starting out photographer. Hello. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. Yeah. Full session pricing between the $150 to $300, which I think is great too. Um I need to charge more. That's all I'm gonna say about that one. And I'm gonna move to the next early weddings, which I know we talked about this, the 500 to 3,000 range, like depending on your market um and your experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm gonna be super candid and share my lifestyle pricing real quick. Oh, go ahead. It varies very little depending on whatever shoot, but at this point, at doing this for six years, again, time I shouldn't have said that. Time doesn't mean anything. Yeah. Yeah. With with experience, yes, I'm charging like $550 to $600 for a lifestyle session, like a standalone whatever. If it is a wedding, there's like kind of a a special, like a my my special rate phrasing that I use for like a truly a discounted engagement session or just because they're already a bride or whatever, they get special rate, but like $550 to $600. And I did that because I do offer standalone mini sessions still. I love them as a mom. I don't have to be away from my house for that long. Right. And the calling and editing takes like zero time. So my mini session pricing, I was still at like $150, even if I was driving to Dallas, which is a little over an hour drive for me. And I wanted to be able to raise that mini session price, or just if I do a mini session day randomly, I wanted to be able to like raise that price.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

For like, so whatever the fraction of my full price needed to be. And that's why I just changed that this year. And you know, I haven't booked as many standalone lifestyle shoots, but the experience is way better because I'm not doing as many of them. I can really care for each client just like I would for a wedding client with contracts and all those kinds of things. So yeah, just I feel like sometimes it's nice to hear actual numbers. You can like see our wedding pricing if you go to our websites, but for like lifestyle stuff, it can get kind of sticky, get tricky, yeah, and feel weird to talk about.

SPEAKER_01

So, and maybe this is like unpopular. The way that I do my pricing now is based on time. Or sure. So as it should be. Yeah. And it's like I feel I have an hourly rate. It's in my brain, though.

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, maybe I should send all my stuff to Travis and tell him Yeah. You should an unbiased third party that knows nothing. She would love to do it.

SPEAKER_01

You can tell me if it makes sense. He is Mr. Calculator, he's married to me and his calculator. Like he would be literally happy to do it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. But I'm like, I I have so I know exactly. I was actually talking to one of your students, I think, is photography baby, right? Okay. Yes, yeah. She was on, she was uh messaging me on Instagram and she was asking, like, how do I know how long it's gonna take for me to edit? Which was a great question. Yeah, for sure. Because I'm like, I just have it streamlined now. But it's like I know how many photos I can edit in an hour. Yeah. And that's like an undistracted hour, which as someone with AD undiagnosed ADHD and babies and babies. But you know, when I'm when it's in the evening and they're asleep, it's also like I'm scrolling and I have to have a snack and I have to have a drink and I have my show on or an audiobook, which I'm listening to, like, you know, I have distractions, but I know how many photos I can edit in an hour. So I also have pricing based on my editing hours to some extent. Yeah. So I have like my hourly rate for shooting and my hourly rate for back end work. Yeah. So I know when I book a wedding, I have probably two hours of emails and calls. I have approximately 10 hours, sometimes more, sometimes less, of driving and shooting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I don't really do drive time, which matters. It matters. Cannot. It is like literally just drove. How like three hours somewhere for a wedding? No comment. Yes. Six hours round trip. Okay, yeah. I'm yeah, one day.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And you couldn't do anything else. You couldn't work on anything else. Yeah. There was nothing to do. That was six hours of my time. And it's like my time is valuable. Your time is valuable. Listeners, if you're listening, is also very valuable. Charge for your time. I'm kind of overcharging for distanced. What'd you say vibes? Vibes. Charging for vibes. No, that's literally all I charge for is vibes. I'm like, that's all I have to offer is a vibe. No, like I don't charge really for driving and stuff like that because especially in the DFW area, it's so varied. It's like, well, I getting to McKinney sometimes might take me three hours when I'm really like 40 miles away. So it's hard to charge that way when more so I'm just charging for my time. So I charge for my time in the car, I charge for my shoot time, and then I have a different price for my editing time, which I have calculated editing a wedding is approximately between like 14 and 18 hours of editing, which I break up in evenings. Um approximately like two or three weeks, yeah, technically, of editing. So I'm like, I I price that way. But if you're listening and you're doing your pricing for the first time, I want to help you find your starting point. Yeah. And I have a couple steps written out for you. Back to my statistics. The first thing is obviously market research. So look at like 10 or 15 people in your niche. So wedding photography, newboard photography, logo design, videography, whatever your business is. Yeah. Look in that niche and in your city and make sure you're looking at like the similar experience level and see what they charge. Yeah. That's important. Yeah. That's important. Yeah. And it should all be like within the same range for the most part. So make sure you do that first. Um, and then obviously identify your level, which would be the second step. You probably already know if you're a beginner, haven't done anything at all. If you're building or if you're more established, Grace and I would be on the more established level. Beginner would be more so you're kind of working on your portfolio building free shoots.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Building would be kind of where probably Grace's coaching clients are, where they've done a couple of style shoots, yeah, kind of built up their portfolio and are working with that $50 starting price. That would be more so building. Step three, this is a hot take. I would love to know what you think about it, Grace, but position yourself a little bit below your peers. Not like drastically like undercutting your pricing. Yes. It's just like a little bit you have to have competitive pricing. Yes. Just a little bit below the market average. So whatever you find, if you're seeing just for like total random example, if you're seeing 100 to 200, maybe give yourself that $90 price. Yep. For sure. Put yourself a little under there. Yeah. This is where I think people get hung up though, because you have to account for the real cost. And I did talk about this in the beginning: the cost of doing business, your time, your tools, your software, your energy, your experience, your drive time, your vibes, and account for your vibes and your time and your tools and your software and your energy. And everything that you've invested, your cost of doing business, your C O D B. Yeah. I was like, oh my God, I'm not gonna make that. Your cost of doing business and make sure to account for that as like your fourth step and think, I just have my one camera and I haven't really invested in this and this yet. I haven't invested in education, yeah, extra online courses, all of those things. So you can put yourself a little bit lower. But if you do that, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00

I would also say if you are investing in certain things, you don't have to scream it from the mountaintops. Like, I paid X amount of dollars, so I deserve to be paid X amount of dollars. However, especially, and this is where like we'll get into marketing eventually, but the more you're sharing with your audience, like on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, like you working, you investing in your business, like, hey, I'm listening to this podcast. Yeah, I want to be a better photographer, or I'm you know, looking at getting this, you know, new camera for your setup, or um, you're doing a styled shoot because you want to get better. You're proud of these edits, and what do we think about blah blah blah. So the more you show that you are care about your business and like you care about the people, I think that also builds credibility and reputability to people to say to you, okay, I think you're worth this much. And then you'll get people telling you, like, hey, you should raise your prices. So I think just not I I think it's also so cringe when I see posts that say, you know, this is a price breakdown for why photographers charge so much and this is why you should pay us so much. Yes, we want to educate people, but we don't have to be doing all that because it's kind of an ick and it may make people not want to book you. Sorry, I said it. So educate them in how you're educating yourself. Like just show them that you care and then they'll want to book you. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that was a really good line. That's gonna be on social media. Like, I'm gonna have to fix that one because it was so good. No, it's true, it's true. And I do hate the you don't need you don't need to give the breakdown to your clients. Um, and like they don't care. It's like they don't have all that stuff, so don't know what you're talking about. And no idea. Like they just want pretty pictures. No, literally, and like the thing people are talking about a lot right now is like the charge of the SD cards because of like all the data centers, which I understand. I already have like a thousand of them, so it like really hasn't affected me. Like, I haven't had to buy any new ones.

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, if everybody's raising their prices anyways, then just raise them to come at the cost of SD cards, right? And you're with the rest of the market. And then you're good.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yes, just make sure when you decide to raise your prices that you're kind of exactly what Grace said. Not when you're comparing, not when you're blah, blah, blah, not because the data centers are, you know, sucking all the power out of the earth, which happy Earth Day, by the way. Oh my gosh. I'm like, it's literally Earth Day. Yes. The day we're recording this is Earth Day, so y'all can figure that out yourselves. But very sad. I need to go into that.

SPEAKER_00

Because this we're releasing this episode this week.

SPEAKER_01

I know. I know. So I know. So that's good. But we're also got our AI episode. So I'm thinking about that as well. I know. I know. So this is we're gonna have we're celebrate together. Yes, this episode, happy earth day, and then our AI episode this week as well, which is kind of crazy. If we're day week, yeah. We love the earth. I love you, Planet Earth. Okay, that was a little fun segue. Okay, I'm getting to get into gear if you're ready. Yeah. Okay. While we're here. I wanna I wanna breeze over it. So I'm hoping that we can talk about this for about five minutes. So if you are creative, no, I'm like me set outside a timer. Site the timer. No, I'm saying it because if you're a creative entrepreneur and not a photographer and you don't want to hear about starter kits for photography, just go ahead and skip ahead five minutes. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Just go ahead and skip ahead five minutes, and then um, we'll meet you back here in a minute for bringing it up. Okay, two camera bodies, one zoom lens, one zoom lens, hot tank. I do have one, but I don't use mine anymore. But I think as a starter, it's really important to have because you don't have the experience of knowing the exact focal length and thinking like I need this for this instance, because I really rotate between my 35, 50, and 85, as you know. But I know that you stay in on business with your 24 to 70. I would make a mirror list 78. Yeah, 28 to 11.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe because it has a lower aperture. You can go down to two.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01

But like my 51.2 never leaves my camera. I that would be a dream to have. It's delicious, delectable. And one macro lens, yeah. What we were just talking about if you're a starter, um, if you're in the beginning phase of your business, a macro lens is a lens with one focal length, 35 millimeters or in five for details and all that kind of stuff. Um, a 50 or an 85 for portraits, or I think those are like the main ones that I would say for weddings.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and then a zoom lens being if you're doing full frame, it's 24 to 70. If you're mirrorless, it's 28, right? Yeah. 28 to 70. Yeah. Yep. So having a zoom lens, I think, is really helpful for more versatility. For sure. Especially in the beginning of your business. You're not like running forward and physically running forward and backwards to get the moment. Um, you can get more movement in a lot of like different compositions quicker than if you're using a macro lens. But I think I love my macro lenses and you know how I am. Yes. But using like a 105 for your rings and your details and using 50 and 85. I use my 50 during the ceremony in my 35, and then I'll do 85 and 50 for portraits and I have actually I'm gonna ask you a question as advice.

SPEAKER_00

So, you know, I have my 28 to 70. I would love to have a 70 to 200 as low aperture as I can get. Like an RF that's like the price of a car. Not really. But I have you have the 70 to 200. You have the RF 70 to 200? No, the full price. I mean, it doesn't, I mean, it doesn't really matter. But yeah, because I have the idea. Because you can like use the adapter. Yeah. Um, but I really want a 70 to 200. That would be probably my double duty on wedding day. However, I know the value of having a prime lens for portraits. Yeah. So if I be rocking two Zoom lenses, talking to somebody who rocks prime lenses pretty consistently, what would you recommend?

SPEAKER_01

I don't use my 70 to 200. Do you want to sell it to me? I'm like, we're making deals on the podcast. Yeah, I'm like, honestly. So I'm actually like getting ready to sell. I have three Mark IIIs, and I'm gonna sell those and buy myself some more lenses. Yeah. I only have one RF lens because I just switched over to mirrorless, as you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So maybe. But I don't know if I look let me look at it into the nature. Yeah. I mean, I may, I don't know. Um you may get into like nature photography. I'm just kidding. I know, right? And like kids and sports and stuff, that's like true. Would be nice to like use your babies, yeah. I know. I don't know. Um, I I feel like I can't give you advice on this because I don't hardly ever use my zoom lenses.

SPEAKER_00

But like if I were to add a prime lens for specifically wedding days, like if I wanted to still rock 20 to 28 to 70 and 70 to 200, but I wanted a prime lens for portraits.

SPEAKER_01

You know that I cannot live and breathe without my 51.2.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, I was gonna say either 50 or 85. I know you'll probably tell me.

SPEAKER_01

I no, I don't use my 85 as much anymore. I only will for like portraits outside. Um because it like you have to be so far away. Yeah. But um, it's not easy to use like at you know, the drop of a hat. And so my 50 never leaves my camera, but I do have a 51.2 and a 51.4. Yeah. And um I obviously only use my 51.2 at this point, but I love my 51.4, and it is like thousands cheaper. So that's maybe a good place to start too. But a 50. A 50 is my advice. Okay, you heard it here, guys. Yeah, I go. You heard it here. Who said it? Okay, and then supporting gear, flash, yes, extra batteries. Obviously, not optional to have batteries and extra, extra, extras. Alex always has like two pounds of double A batteries in her bag at all times. I do. I'll buy the Amazon Essentials, like literally the battery packs of triple A's and double A's for my flash, and I carry like the giant sleeve of them at all times. And guess what? My wedding this last Saturday, I used 12 of them. Because I had one flash on all day. And then at the reception, I like ended up using both cameras, two flashes. And then like I went through two sets of batteries on one flash, and then one. Set and they take four each. So I went through 12 batteries. But this is double A's for your flash as well as camera batteries. Yeah. So just like as many as you can have. Yeah. Better. And then sometimes I even plug them in like at weddings because I'm like, just in case, I don't know. I'm crazy about the batteries, memory cards, and then some sort of like strap or harness system. I'm a proponent for like a double harness. Yeah. But I think the most important is having two cameras. Yeah. If you are starting out, if you're brand new and you have one camera and one lens, you're good, but you need to rent. This is the time to rent. Okay. So go ahead and do it. If you want to test out lenses, Grace loves her 28 to 70. I don't use my Zoom lens. So that may be your thing. It may not. I love to switch out all of my macro lenses. So if that's what you want to do, yeah, go that route. But you can rent your gear for one day. You have to have two cameras. Yeah. Don't even go into a wedding day with one. No ma'am. No ma'am, no, Sarah. For clarification, full clarification, a macro lens is a 105 and high focal point lenses. I'm meaning prime lenses. So do you get the point? Like, hello, I'm not a professional here. I'm just I always am using the wrong word, but you're like super confident about it. Yeah. I just like to say that. Yeah. A prime lens that does not zoom with a set focal point is what I mean. Yes. Y'all get it. We get it. I do love my 105.

SPEAKER_00

And so I use that a lot too. Okay. I'm going to put like a lens rental something in the show notes too. So people can have that kind of resource. Yes. There's a couple of different places you can that are reputable.

SPEAKER_01

That's yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I love aperture rent here in the DFW area.

SPEAKER_01

Cool. But I found like a local one Arlington camera that I love. And I think that's where I'm going to go to sell my old Mark IIIs too. Okay. Buy used equipment. So I have a couple that I'll send you. So I'll send you. Okay, I'm done talking about all that. If you guys need any help, don't hesitate to reach out to us at any time. But y'all get it. Zoom lens, plime lens, not to be confused with macro, but there's a little bit of overlap there. Two camera bodies, and y'all heard the essentials and you got it. And just rent. Rent if you need to rent. Don't feel like you need to buy all of it, but you need backups.

SPEAKER_00

I love equipment. I know you do. Before you purchase anything, you should be renting or like borrow it from a friend. You gotta test drive the car. Yeah. You gotta test drive the car. Totally agree. Totally agree. Okay. I'm over it. I'm done with it. I'm gonna say one more thing about pricing that I just remembered. Yeah. Um from uh I'm gonna mention his name because uh I've not heard anybody else talk about this really. Um, Nathan Chansky, uh, I just love everything that he does. Um, one of our one of our industry leaders in photography, no, just does a really great job talking about marketing, but he talks about not pricing yourself with like $147 price ranges or like $180 or $299 or whatever. That's coming from like food industry standard pricing, and you're not food industry standard or a luxury, photography is a luxury. Yes. So unapologetically pushing it up to like, okay, actually, I'm gonna charge $3,000 or $10,000 or whatever you're gonna charge, $500. Um, you can be $150, but like just kind of throwing that in there, be proud of the the budget range you want to be sitting in.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's and just own it.

SPEAKER_00

It's 2026. Let's get those round numbers in there. Yes. It seems super random to throw that in there at the end. No, it's maybe I can splice it together somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, it's really good. It's really good. And I actually agree with you in this like, no, I'll bring it to a close. I'll wrap it all together because photography and most creative entrepreneurship type businesses, founded businesses, are not a necessity. They totally are a luxury. And I know we kind of throw around the word luxury because there are certain people in this industry that love to market themselves as luxury, but it's really the truth that most creative entrepreneurs are working as a luxury. So like what we are offering is a luxury, which can be the pro and con. It's like it's not something that you need every single day, but it's something that you feel that you can add. Like photography is a luxury. Getting like professional branding is a luxury, videography is a luxury. Web design is a luxury. It's a luxury, right? Like it's not a necessity. It is not like a necessary business. And so be sure to position yourself in that way and price yourself in that way. Yeah, exactly what you said. I just loved it and it was good. Keep it at the end. I think it, I think it's perfect with exactly what you said. Position yourself for sustainability and set that pricing based on the market, but where you're at, and knowing that you're a luxury service and that people want to have a good experience and they want to pay you for something that is special and cool, like photos for a new website, all those things. And just remember, I know we've said this throughout this whole series, but your first six months aren't about getting everything perfect.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

There's so much that's gonna evolve and change. Your life is going to, your business is going to just make sure you're gathering the data, not comparing two, but gathering the data and really assessing where you're at in your business to build something real, real, real, country, real meic accent came out. You're building something real, yeah, and you want it to be sustainable and you want to be able to work your way up.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And if you're not sure still what you should be pricing, I know Alex and I both like would love to give you feedback. Our Instagrams are in the show notes and message us. Yeah, DMs are always open. You can ask us anything. Woo-hoo. We won't always have the answer, but we can probably point you to somebody who does. True. And we're more than willing to do that. No gatekeeping here, friends. Never, never. We're about community, not competition.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And we also love collaboration. No, we love both things. We also love to collaborate. We love to collaborate about community and not competition.

SPEAKER_00

And that's it. Love it. Wow. That was that was lengthy, but I hope you got something good out of it. I think it's gonna be great. We will chat with you next time, friends. Bye.